"The Ghost of Oppo" (gohstoklasa)
09/18/2015 at 12:35 • Filed to: VWfail
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"The Ghost of Oppo" (gohstoklasa)
09/18/2015 at 12:35 • Filed to: VWfail | 2
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!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
For reasons I don’t wish to discuss, this is hilarious to me
WiscoProud
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 12:37 |
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I wonder what exactly they did. The article says they used software, but wouldn't a tail pipe sniffer be able to tell if it was over the limits?
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The Ghost of Oppo
> WiscoProud
09/18/2015 at 12:41 |
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The NY Times article has more information
HammerheadFistpunch
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 12:42 |
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There is WAY too little information here (linked article). It sounds like...guessing here...that the ECU tune for the tested cars wasn’t the same for sold cars? or that the ECU tune reverts to a less clean tune after a certain time or something. I know I’ve had my TDI (2011) into the dealer for a re-flash related to emissions, I wonder if that’s what it is. The bad news is that its probably going to severely impact the life of my emissions controls.
Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 12:42 |
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FCA: Who the fuck is the EPA?
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The Ghost of Oppo
> HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2015 at 12:43 |
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Link undated with NY Times article with more info
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HammerheadFistpunch
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 12:52 |
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yeah, looks like im boned. dangit, this thing is getting less and less desirable to own all the time. (2011 sportwagen TDI)
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The Ghost of Oppo
> HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2015 at 12:54 |
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Well the question is what if the cars don’t meet emissions standards after they are fixed. 500k lemons?
jariten1781
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 12:56 |
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Awesome, I wonder if they can even flash the thing to run in 'emissions' mode the whole time without seriously effecting power delivery. I'll be holding back on getting this done if I'm caught up in it until reports come back.
BobintheMtns
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 12:59 |
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I was involved in some laboratory emissions testing a few years back (this was at a CARB certified lab too).. But according to one of the scientist on hand, this is pretty common. He said that “all” manufacturers are doing now... (How much is true, I don’t know, but I will attest that this guy was not just some random noob).
But the way the scam worked, was that to test emissions, the EPA had a set “profile” for the dyno to simulate day-to-day driving. So that when you put a car on the dyno to test emissions, the dyno would behave as if the car was on a flat road for 1.2 miles, then slight upgrade for x distance, than less resistance to simulate coasting down the back side of the “hill” you just climbed, then more flats, some more hills.. etc etc. And the program was exactly the same for every car... the purpose being was so all emissions testing was done on the same “track” so to speak...
But this scientist explained to me that the automakers had incorporated this EPA profile into the cars’ brains, so if they were running an offical EPA emissions check, the car would recognize that this was the offical EPA dyno profile, and the cpu would then back off the throttle/adjust the timing etc to game the emissions in it’s favor....
Sounds like vw might of just gotten caught for this very thing.......
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The Ghost of Oppo
> BobintheMtns
09/18/2015 at 13:04 |
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Yup, from experience I can tell you almost all auto manufacturers(besides Toyota) were not going to meet the standards set by the Clean Air Act for 2018, but now it looks like VWoA is effed in the A
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BobintheMtns
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 13:08 |
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Brutal for vw..... and brutal for the owners of the cars too... the recall they get will probably be a reflash that strangles a good portion of the motors’ power....
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The Ghost of Oppo
> BobintheMtns
09/18/2015 at 13:15 |
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Yeah, this is bad bad news for corporate. Kia/Hyundai were fined $300 million for just over stating mpg numbers, not actively trying to cheat the system. I wonder what VW’s fine will be
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BobintheMtns
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 13:19 |
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Well, hopefully vw getting caught will shine a light on the rest of auto-manufacturers gaming the emissions tests........
Saracen
> HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2015 at 13:41 |
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I’m boned too.
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HammerheadFistpunch
> Saracen
09/18/2015 at 13:42 |
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Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
> BobintheMtns
09/18/2015 at 13:44 |
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As a long time owner/tuner/tinkerer of VW products...they have a MASSIVE amount of data logging going on in their cars. Anyone who is familiar with Ross-Tech’s VAG-com software knows full well there is a TON of ways to game the emissions system. I can go in and delete emission OBD-II codes and leave NO trace using the software. I am assuming that their on-board ECU can sense when the emissions computer is connected to the OBD-II adapter and makes certain changes to the emission settings. If I can read the voltage of the individual knock sensors on my car while sitting in my driveway, I can only imagine what the VW engineers have buried deep in the software package for their engine management computers.
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Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
> HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2015 at 13:48 |
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I don’t know bro. It is emissions. Nothing should effect the actually running of the car. In fact from my years of VW hobby mechanic work, the cars probably run better as sold to the public with the “defeat software” working. This is VW we are talking about.
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Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 13:50 |
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Why would they be lemons? Let’s be honest, the reason VW went through the trouble is because they know their cars perform WORSE when forced to comply with US EPA emissions standards.
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HammerheadFistpunch
> Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
09/18/2015 at 13:50 |
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is this a “two wrongs make a right” thing?
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WiscoProud
> The Ghost of Oppo
09/18/2015 at 13:55 |
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That's pretty ballsy.
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BobintheMtns
> Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
09/18/2015 at 13:57 |
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Yeah, I’m sure there’s a million ways to game it with the electronics of today.. but the guy who told me about it was saying the cars recognized the EPA test not through electronics/sensors, but just through mileage... because the EPA test was standardized, the car’s computer would notice that it had gone exactly 1.2555 miles on flats, then exactly .654 miles uphill then exactly .657 miles downhill.... and it’d realize that it was doing an EPA test and then adjust the stocihiometry accordingly......
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Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
> HammerheadFistpunch
09/18/2015 at 13:58 |
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I am a car guy, not an emissions guy. There is a reason why every VW tuner sells O2 sensor spacers. To fool emissions. VW just built it in. Not a big deal to the end consumer in the day to day use of their car. I would not even take mine in for the recall as I cannot see how my local emissions dude is going to look at my 2009 Jetta and quote the EPA ruling and ask to see proof of an updated emissions flash.
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HammerheadFistpunch
> Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
09/18/2015 at 14:02 |
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It’s all electronics so I guess it just depends on how they implant a change, if the new emissions testing software is made aware of the change and can somehow differentiate it could fail you without the reflash being done. It’s a long shot though. As for visual...Yeah I’m not too worried, my cruiser just posed without mudflaps.
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Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
> BobintheMtns
09/18/2015 at 14:14 |
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This does not sound like the lab test they were gaming. As others have mentioned, lots of makers built in code to sense the CAFE test loop. To me, when I read “official emissions test” I think of my every other year emissions test through the OBD-II port.
The first thing the official emissions test checks for is that the system is ready and has been through enough cycles to take a proper reading. If you go to get an emission test after having your battery unplugged for a while they will tell you to come back after you have driven the car long enough to have data for them to test. My thinking is that VW set up their software to sense that cycling check and change the emission mapping because it would know the official test is on its way. Then it would revert back to standard after a predetermined cycle.
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The Ghost of Oppo
> Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
09/18/2015 at 15:13 |
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I was being facetious, but depending on how much the emissions need to be lowered, it could definitely effect performance